Mark Sofer, Ambassador of Israel to India, in an exclusive conversation with B&E talks about Iran, terrorism, Palestine, and a solution in West Asia
B&E: How does the present generation of Israelis look at the Holocaust? Do they still get impacted by that?
MS: Well, undoubtedly, throughout history, the persecution of Jews had a profound influence on the nature of Jewish people. The most recent manifestation of the same has been the persecution of Jewish people in the last century or what you call the Holocaust; and perhaps that is also the worst manifestation. While the Holocaust survivors are still there, it is the age of the second generation. Yet, even for the third generation of Jews in Israel, the trauma of Holocaust is very much part of the national psyche. And especially with the kind of denial of the Holocaust emanating from the likes of Ahmadinejad in Iran, it only aggravates our collective pain as a nation. We get hurt and wonder that even today there are presidents of nations who can still stand and claim that the Holocaust never happened.
B&E: How does Israel perceive the changing geopolitical paradigm of the world?
MS: I think the 20th century was one of the least stable centuries of the last many hundreds of years. But clearly, there is something new abounding. The world has been witnessing the rise of religious extremism, which is attempting to throw-back human civilization to middle ages – where logic, ideology, politics would mean nothing – and there is blatant misuse or abuse in the name of religion. To a large extent, half of the world is being partitioned into moderation and extremism rather than on political or territorial issues, which is also visible in south Asia. Clearly what happened in Pune a few weeks back or what happened in Mumbai a year or what has been happening in several other parts of the world vindicate this very thing. Even among the seemingly homogeneous societies like Palestinians, you have the pragmatic moderate Palestinians on one hand, like the Fatah, and on the other hand the extremist sects, which have overtaken Gaza and state that they are drawing inspiration from God; or they tend to create that perception.
When you reach that level, then you start wondering how are we going to get all these moderate forces to act together against extremism.
B&E: Can the issues of Middle East ever be settled?
MS: Clearly, we have to solve the political dispute in West Asia not just because ‘we have to solve the political dispute of West Asia’, but because it can work as a spin-off in forging an alliance between the moderate Arab world, Israel, civilized nations in Asia and Europe against extremists, especially the Islamist extremism. And I use the word Islamist and not Islamic as there’s a lot of difference between the two. Countries like India, Israel – even the civilized Arab world including countries like Egypt – are frightened by the rise of the extremist Islam.
B&E: But your relations with Germany? Have they improved over time?
MS: Well, I think it’s very much a personal issue. In other words, everybody remembers and everybody knows not just in Israel but in the Jewish world as a whole what happened there during World War II. Nonetheless, sixty five years on, we have very good relations with Germany – economically, politically and culturally. Germany, at least, has taken part of the blame of what happened in the Nazi era, while others haven’t. On a personal level, some people still find it very difficult to work with Germany. But on a State level, today, our relations with Germany are very strong.
B&E : Has with time the relation between Israel and Germany improved?
MS : Well I think it’s very much a personal issue. In other words, everybody remembers and everybody knows not just in Israel but in the Jewish world as a whole what happened there during the 2nd world war. Nonetheless, 65 years on, we have very good relation with Germany -economically, politically and culturally - Germany at least has taken part of the blame of what happened in the Nazi era while others haven’t. On a personal level some people still find it very difficult to work with Germany. But on a state level until today our relation with Germany has been very strong.
B&E : Does the declining law & order situation In Pakistan the chances of Pakistan's possible disintegration worry Israel?
MS : We are not a world player. We are a small country situated in west Asia. We have limited amount of resources; we can apply at different parts of the world. But what is happening in Pakistan is really worrying. The threat on India emanating from there and threat on Jews and Israelis in India emanating from there the way it happened in Mumbai showed and clearly, I think, any civilized place has to be worried. Any normal country has to be worried of what is going inside Pakistan. However I do think the response and possible responses to the development in Pakistan has to be worked out by Indian authorities themselves with no possible advice given by us, as no two situations are identical. We have the fullest trust in Indian authorities and we stand behind them 100 per cent
B&E : In spite of the common perception that Israel stand against the Arab states, the relation between Turkey and Israel has been pretty good.
MS : Firstly, Turkey is not an Arab state. Second of all I don’t want to portray Israel as the enemy of Arab world. I would try my hardest and may succeed to some extent in also stating that the Arab world is not the enemy of Israel. We are pleased with 2 countries – Egypt and Jordan- 2 most important countries. We have ongoing relationship, sometimes more and sometimes less, with number of other Arab countries. So, I think we should try to be a little bit more nuance in that approach. We have good relationship with Turkey, but they have been little bit undermined recently for 1 reason or the other, and we have to get back the way they were. But Turkey is a crucial country and is the bridge between Europe and Asia; between Middle East and Europe. It is one of the major player and a very important country. We used to have before the rise of regime in Iraq and their relationship with Iran. We look forward to the fact that Ahmadinejad would no longer be terer, and Iran can play and should play a major role in the international arena. Iranian people are great people who contributed most in the civilization of the modern world, almost as any other. And yet, they are being taken over by holocaust denying, terrorist supporting, Ahmedinejad who is killing his own people now because they didn’t vote for him. But if you look around the Middle East – not everyone is Arab or not every country is an Arab country. And even among the Arab countries themselves, there are differences in approach. You have number of pragmatic states in the North African Arab world – Morocco, Egypt- you have number of hardliners, like Syria for example or Gaddaffi’s Libya; and Palestinians themselves are divided between pragmatics and extremists.
B&E: How does the present generation of Israelis look at the Holocaust? Do they still get impacted by that?
MS: Well, undoubtedly, throughout history, the persecution of Jews had a profound influence on the nature of Jewish people. The most recent manifestation of the same has been the persecution of Jewish people in the last century or what you call the Holocaust; and perhaps that is also the worst manifestation. While the Holocaust survivors are still there, it is the age of the second generation. Yet, even for the third generation of Jews in Israel, the trauma of Holocaust is very much part of the national psyche. And especially with the kind of denial of the Holocaust emanating from the likes of Ahmadinejad in Iran, it only aggravates our collective pain as a nation. We get hurt and wonder that even today there are presidents of nations who can still stand and claim that the Holocaust never happened.
B&E: How does Israel perceive the changing geopolitical paradigm of the world?
MS: I think the 20th century was one of the least stable centuries of the last many hundreds of years. But clearly, there is something new abounding. The world has been witnessing the rise of religious extremism, which is attempting to throw-back human civilization to middle ages – where logic, ideology, politics would mean nothing – and there is blatant misuse or abuse in the name of religion. To a large extent, half of the world is being partitioned into moderation and extremism rather than on political or territorial issues, which is also visible in south Asia. Clearly what happened in Pune a few weeks back or what happened in Mumbai a year or what has been happening in several other parts of the world vindicate this very thing. Even among the seemingly homogeneous societies like Palestinians, you have the pragmatic moderate Palestinians on one hand, like the Fatah, and on the other hand the extremist sects, which have overtaken Gaza and state that they are drawing inspiration from God; or they tend to create that perception.
When you reach that level, then you start wondering how are we going to get all these moderate forces to act together against extremism.
B&E: Can the issues of Middle East ever be settled?
MS: Clearly, we have to solve the political dispute in West Asia not just because ‘we have to solve the political dispute of West Asia’, but because it can work as a spin-off in forging an alliance between the moderate Arab world, Israel, civilized nations in Asia and Europe against extremists, especially the Islamist extremism. And I use the word Islamist and not Islamic as there’s a lot of difference between the two. Countries like India, Israel – even the civilized Arab world including countries like Egypt – are frightened by the rise of the extremist Islam.
B&E: But your relations with Germany? Have they improved over time?
MS: Well, I think it’s very much a personal issue. In other words, everybody remembers and everybody knows not just in Israel but in the Jewish world as a whole what happened there during World War II. Nonetheless, sixty five years on, we have very good relations with Germany – economically, politically and culturally. Germany, at least, has taken part of the blame of what happened in the Nazi era, while others haven’t. On a personal level, some people still find it very difficult to work with Germany. But on a State level, today, our relations with Germany are very strong.
B&E : Has with time the relation between Israel and Germany improved?
MS : Well I think it’s very much a personal issue. In other words, everybody remembers and everybody knows not just in Israel but in the Jewish world as a whole what happened there during the 2nd world war. Nonetheless, 65 years on, we have very good relation with Germany -economically, politically and culturally - Germany at least has taken part of the blame of what happened in the Nazi era while others haven’t. On a personal level some people still find it very difficult to work with Germany. But on a state level until today our relation with Germany has been very strong.
B&E : Does the declining law & order situation In Pakistan the chances of Pakistan's possible disintegration worry Israel?
MS : We are not a world player. We are a small country situated in west Asia. We have limited amount of resources; we can apply at different parts of the world. But what is happening in Pakistan is really worrying. The threat on India emanating from there and threat on Jews and Israelis in India emanating from there the way it happened in Mumbai showed and clearly, I think, any civilized place has to be worried. Any normal country has to be worried of what is going inside Pakistan. However I do think the response and possible responses to the development in Pakistan has to be worked out by Indian authorities themselves with no possible advice given by us, as no two situations are identical. We have the fullest trust in Indian authorities and we stand behind them 100 per cent
B&E : In spite of the common perception that Israel stand against the Arab states, the relation between Turkey and Israel has been pretty good.
MS : Firstly, Turkey is not an Arab state. Second of all I don’t want to portray Israel as the enemy of Arab world. I would try my hardest and may succeed to some extent in also stating that the Arab world is not the enemy of Israel. We are pleased with 2 countries – Egypt and Jordan- 2 most important countries. We have ongoing relationship, sometimes more and sometimes less, with number of other Arab countries. So, I think we should try to be a little bit more nuance in that approach. We have good relationship with Turkey, but they have been little bit undermined recently for 1 reason or the other, and we have to get back the way they were. But Turkey is a crucial country and is the bridge between Europe and Asia; between Middle East and Europe. It is one of the major player and a very important country. We used to have before the rise of regime in Iraq and their relationship with Iran. We look forward to the fact that Ahmadinejad would no longer be terer, and Iran can play and should play a major role in the international arena. Iranian people are great people who contributed most in the civilization of the modern world, almost as any other. And yet, they are being taken over by holocaust denying, terrorist supporting, Ahmedinejad who is killing his own people now because they didn’t vote for him. But if you look around the Middle East – not everyone is Arab or not every country is an Arab country. And even among the Arab countries themselves, there are differences in approach. You have number of pragmatic states in the North African Arab world – Morocco, Egypt- you have number of hardliners, like Syria for example or Gaddaffi’s Libya; and Palestinians themselves are divided between pragmatics and extremists.
Source : IIPM Editorial, 2012.
An Initiative of IIPM, Malay Chaudhuri
and Arindam Chaudhuri (Renowned Management Guru and Economist).
For More IIPM Info, Visit below mentioned IIPM articles.
Prof. Rajita Chaudhuri's Website
domain-b.com : IIPM ranked ahead of IIMs
Arindam Chaudhuri's Portfolio - he is at his candid best by Society Magazine
IIPM Best B School India
Management Guru Arindam Chaudhuri
Rajita Chaudhuri-The New Age Woman
IIPM's Management Consulting Arm-Planman Consulting
Professor Arindam Chaudhuri - A Man For The Society....
IIPM: Indian Institute of Planning and Management
IIPM makes business education truly global
IIPM B-School Detail
An Initiative of IIPM, Malay Chaudhuri
and Arindam Chaudhuri (Renowned Management Guru and Economist).
For More IIPM Info, Visit below mentioned IIPM articles.
Prof. Rajita Chaudhuri's Website
domain-b.com : IIPM ranked ahead of IIMs
Arindam Chaudhuri's Portfolio - he is at his candid best by Society Magazine
IIPM Best B School India
Management Guru Arindam Chaudhuri
Rajita Chaudhuri-The New Age Woman
IIPM's Management Consulting Arm-Planman Consulting
Professor Arindam Chaudhuri - A Man For The Society....
IIPM: Indian Institute of Planning and Management
IIPM makes business education truly global
IIPM B-School Detail
